Der Doomsday Bären-Thread
Ich hab mit meinen sehr bescheidenen Kenntnissen am WE versucht zu erklären was da momentan überhaupt los ist!!
Die Fed kann gar nix machen, da gibts nur Rezession oder Rezession, aber nur will dass niemand hören, wird aber so kommen!!
Servus, J.B.
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"If any man seeks for greatness, let him forget greatness and ask for truth, and he will find both." (Horace Mann)
"Diesmal ist alles anders!"
Wer da short ist, hat selber schuld. Sieht ja schließlich jeder, dass die Lawinen steigen. Fundamentale Schwerkraft-Zweifel sind von gestern. Man muss traden, was man sieht, nicht was man glaubt! Der Chart hat immer Recht!
Der wahre Dummkopf war Newton. Dem ist wohl mal ein Apfel vom Baum auf den Kopf gefallen. Das hat der Arme dann nie vergessen und daraus im Fieberwahn die Graviationsgesetze zusammengelogen.
ob ich es als Trend oder Kontraindikator sehe (hab da keine feste Regel).
Im Falle des lanfristigen OEX-PCR Charts sehe ich es als Indikator für
fallende Kurse mittelfristig.
Bei kurzfristiger Betrachtung ist der absolute Wert immer etwas mit vorsicht
zu sehen wenn man das Volumen nicht kennt bzw. nicht vergleichen kann.
Hier noch mal ein besserer VergleichsChart von woernie aus dem TS-Forum.
Wall Street Journal
The Subprime Market's Rough RoadBy NICK TIMIRAOSFebruary 17, 2007; Page A7 Rising defaults and delinquencies by home buyers with shaky credit are wreaking havoc in parts of the mortgage industry and stirring concerns about a stumble in the U.S. economy. Foreclosure rates on "subprime" loans -- those made to borrowers with poor credit records -- more than doubled last year from 2005, according to a UBS report. Some firms that specialized in those loans now face large losses or even bankruptcy. This past week, Accredited Home Lenders Holding Co. reported a $37.8 million loss for the fourth quarter -- three times wider than analysts expected. Also this past week, ResMae Mortgage Corp. became at least the 20th subprime lender to close or be sold when it filed for bankruptcy. The subprime shakeout is having a spillover effect on bigger financial institutions such as HSBC Holdings PLC, Merrill Lynch & Co. and J.P. Morgan Chase & Co. They eagerly bought up these high-risk loans in 2005 and 2006 because they offered higher interest rates. Now the firms are trying to cut their losses and force mortgage originators to buy back some of the risky loans. Federal Reserve Board Chairman Ben Bernanke offered an upbeat assessment of the economy in testimony before Congress this past week. But the threat of foreclosures in the subprime lending industry remains a significant cloud in the outlook. Here is a closer look at the problem: Why did subprime loans get so popular? Subprime loans made up 12.75% of the $10.2 trillion mortgage market in 2006, up from 8.5% in 2001, according to Inside Mortgage Finance. The homeownership rate has grown to 69% from 65% over the past decade, about half of which came from subprime lending, according to a study by the Federal Reserve Bank of Chicago.
Seeking new clients at a time when home values were soaring in many markets, emboldened lenders raced to offer easy credit with exotic loans, such as "piggyback" loans requiring no down payment and "no-doc" loans that let borrowers state their incomes without supporting documentation. Subprime lenders charge higher interest rates -- sometimes four percentage points more than on loans to more credit-worthy borrowers. Investors, eager for bigger returns, have fueled demand by purchasing securities that are backed by these mortgages. That has enabled many mortgage originators to turn around and sell their loans after making them, enabling more loans and reducing their risk. But once home prices started dropping, some borrowers began defaulting on their mortgages. One study by the Center for Responsible Lending predicts that as many as one out of every five subprime borrowers who took out reduced payment or low-documentation loans between 1998 and mid-2006 could lose their homes. Who stands to lose should the industry collapse? Firms that specialized in subprime mortgages are feeling pain right now, as are financial institutions that lent to those firms. But the subprime market is fairly fragmented: The top three subprime lenders had a roughly 21% market share combined last year, and the top 10 controlled less than 60% of the market, according to a UBS report. Because so many of these mortgages were used to back bonds that were then sold off to investors world-wide, the risk has been spread more broadly through the economy. In 2005, two-thirds of home mortgage originators were securitized, according to the FDIC. Investors in the derivatives market [= Hedgefonds - A.L.] who sold protection against the riskier loans stand to lose money if defaults increase. POINT OF VIEW "Several credible reports say that we are facing a tidal wave of defaults and foreclosures, which could strip these families of their major, if not their only, source of wealth and long-term economic security." --Federal Reserve Chairman Ben Bernanke Some hedge funds and banks, on the other hand, made the opposite bet, and will make money as borrowers default. Could the collapse of the subprime market presage a bigger unraveling of the economy? Mr. Bernanke voiced concern about the subprime-mortgage industry on Capitol Hill this past week, but gave an otherwise upbeat assessment of the economy, which has seen unemployment reach near-record lows, strong corporate profits, steady gross domestic product growth and moderate interest rates. But some worry that the subprime shakeout will lead to tightened credit restrictions on all borrowers, which could hurt consumer spending. Credit tightening also could cause further pain in the housing market, dashing hopes that the worst of the housing slump is over. * * *• Nearly 1.2 million foreclosure filings were reported last year, a 42% rise from 2005. That is a rate of one in every 92 U.S. households.• Colorado, Georgia and Nevada had the nation's highest foreclosure rates last year, according to RealtyTrac. Among the top 100 metropolitan areas, Detroit, Atlanta and Indianapolis topped the list. • About 80% of subprime mortgages today are adjustable-rate mortgages, or ARMs, that have been nicknamed "exploding ARMs" because they have low fixed-interest payments in their first few years but then usually adjust to higher interest payments. • Creative new subprime loans -- "piggyback," "interest-only," and "no-doc" loans, among others -- accounted for 47% of total loans issued last year. At the start of the decade, they were less than 2% of total mortgage loans. • Borrowers have never been more leveraged. Loan-to-value ratios, the loan amount expressed as a percent of the property value, have grown to 86.5% last year from 78% in 2000. Write to Nick Timiraos at nick.timiraos@wsj.com4 |
Weiterhin bedenklich ist, dass die Mehrzahl der Fondmanager mit weiteren Zinserhöhungen in USA rechnet - was eigentlich für fallende Gewinne/Aktienkurse sorgen sollte.
Bereits jetzt sind die Gewinnzuwächse der SP-500-Firmen rückläufig:
http://www.ariva.de/board/245194?pnr=3099637#jump3099637
In der laufenden Berichtssaison liegt der durchschnittliche Gewinn der SP-500-Firmen bei nur 9,3 % (gut 2/3 der Firmen haben bislang berichtet). In den letzten 17 Quartalen hatte es noch stets zweistelliges Gewinnwachstum gegeben. Die Rückgänge kommen - wie üblich - mit 6 Monaten Verspätung nach der letzten Fed-Zinserhöhung im Sommer. Erhöht die Fed die Zinsen weiter, dürfte das Gewinnwachstum noch stärker fallen.
Mutual Fund Monday
Fund Managers Are Bullish but Wary
By Brett Arends
Mutual Funds Columnist
2/19/2007 9:03 AM EST
URL: http://www.thestreet.com/funds/mutualfundmonday/10339427.html
Top money managers have turned sharply more bullish since the start of the year. But with that comes a problem: Inflation fears, they say, are back on the table. These are the findings from Merrill Lynch's latest global survey of institutional investors.
"Asset allocators increasingly believe that the Fed should be more concerned about the risk of higher inflation than about the risk of slower economic growth," says Merrill adviser David Bowers, who produced the report.
It's no wonder the yield on 10-year Treasuries, which reflects inflation fears, has risen to 4.7% from just over 4.4% at the start of December.
The warning appears to put institutional investors at odds with Fed chief Ben Bernanke, who made cheerful hints about interest rates last week. The survey was conducted before last week's testimony and before fresh data suggesting the U.S. economy was softer than expected in the fourth quarter. The warning also reflects concerns about rising prices overseas.
On the positive side, the 206 money managers surveyed this month have become significantly less pessimistic about the global economy. The net balance of money managers who believe the economy will weaken in the next 12 months has halved since November.
The money managers have dropped their cash balances to some of the lowest levels since Merrill began tracking the figure back in 1997, and they haven taken on more risk, and more equities, in their portfolios. An increasing number are also pressuring company CEOs to borrow more money and spend it expanding their businesses, a sure sign of bullishness.
In short: Asset allocators, says Bowers, are "in love with equities."
The balance of managers who are overweight equities is as high as it was in the spring of last year, Bowers notes.
Awkward thought: Wasn't that just before markets tanked? Long-time market observers will have learned the hard way that when institutional investors get really bullish, you might want to mind your eye.
"Passions are running highest for eurozone equities," Bowers says, "where the net overweight position is the most positive in 18 months. Among global sectors, investors have 'the hots' for technology, insurance and industrials, while utilities are still shunned on valuation grounds. Global pharmaceuticals are once again the sector that is perceived as most undervalued. Outside of traditional assets, investors are underweight commodities, neutral property and overweight 'alternative investments' such as hedge funds and private equity."
But the inflation fears are the sting in the tail. The percentage of fund managers expecting cuts in short-term interest rates over the next year has plunged to just 25%, from 39% as recently as December. Slightly more than half, 51%, actually expect a rise. That's up from just 36% two months ago.
[Wieso sind dann so viele bullisch und voll investiert? Weitere Fed-Zinserhöhungen sollten sich negativ auf Aktien auswirken... - A.L.]
And a clear majority expect long-term rates to rise as well. The bulk of money managers continue to warn that the bond market overall is overvalued, as they have for several years.
[D.h. Zinserhöhungen werden die Anleihekurse runter bringen (was die Bondrenditen erhöht). IMHO sollte die Zinserhöhungen aber zugleich die Aktienkurse runterbringen.]
Merill Lynch und Konsorten haben noch 'ne Menge anderer "kleiner Geheimnisse".
Wall Street's next scandal
The SEC is investigating whether some of Wall Street's top investment banks are using inside information. Fortune's Shawn Tully explores the potentially explosive scandal.
February 19 2007: 7:20 AM EST
(Fortune Magazine) -- In early February, the SEC confirmed that it was investigating whether the major brokerage houses were tipping off hedge funds to the trades the brokers handle for big clients like mutual funds. If that's happening, it would be a scandal.
The SEC is also likely to scour trading records to see if the brokers are using info about clients' moves to invest their own capital. If the SEC finds evidence that they are, the scandal would be enormous - and go to the heart of Wall Street's profit machine.
A big question mark hangs over Wall Street: How is it that the top firms consistently beat the odds, earning spectacular returns on their own investments? Last year the five biggest U.S. investment banks -
Morgan Stanley (Charts), Goldman Sachs (Charts), Merrill Lynch (Charts), Lehman Brothers (Charts) and Bear Stearns (Charts) - generated $61 billion from proprietary trading, about half their total revenue and a 54 percent increase over 2005.Those returns have raised eyebrows for years. "Even the greatest investors lose money at some point, but the Wall Street firms never seem to lose," marvels Tiger Williams, chief of Williams Trading, a firm that attributes its success to keeping its hedge fund clients' trades strictly confidential.
SEC vs. hedge funds: Anger managementSome Wall Street insiders are pretty sure they know the secret. "Privileged information is the real currency that runs Wall Street," says Doug Atkin, the former CEO of Instinet who now runs the research boutique Majestic Research. "With what the traders at the big firms know, my 11-year-old son could make tons of money."
Here's a hypothetical example, gleaned from former Wall Street traders as well as outsiders who worked closely with them, of how some people think the Street exploits information. Say a fund company, call it Big Dog, wants to buy a million shares of Intel. A Big Dog trader calls a broker at a Wall Street firm - call it Megabux. The broker enters the order into the Megabux trading system. A dozen Megabux "sales traders" get the info on their computer screens. Their job is to find sellers for the shares. But first they call their top hedge fund clients, giving them the chance to buy some Intel before Big Dog pushes up the price. To cover their tracks, the hedge funds don't buy the Intel shares through Megabux, but they reward their benefactor with a lot of other big trades and by paying higher commissions than the mutual funds do.
That may not be the only way Megabux makes money on its knowledge of clients' trading activity. The broker who takes the order can pass the info on to Megabux's proprietary trading desk. The proprietary traders don't load up on Intel before Big Dog does - that would be illegal.
But let's say they know that when Big Dog is interested in a stock, it usually ends up buying several million shares, and thus will soon purchase more. Megabux buys shares of Intel (or of a tech index fund that holds Intel, or even of other stocks in the sector) after the first order; when Big Dog returns for more, pushing up the price again, Megabux makes a quick profit. The practice is hard to trace and may or may not be illegal. But it still hurts investors in Big Dog's funds by forcing Big Dog to pay prices that are inflated by the leaks. (The brokers have said repeatedly that they have safeguards in place to make sure such activity doesn't occur.)
Why would mutual funds put up with such abuse? "They need access to Wall Street's research and clearing services and to IPO allocations," says Atkin, so they have to keep trading with the big brokers.
Even if mutual funds were to do all their trading on electronic systems like Liquidnet that promise anonymity, Wall Street has another potential source of intelligence - the hedge funds themselves. Some big banks have "prime brokerage" operations that clear and settle trades for hedge funds. The prime brokers see what hedge funds buy and sell every day, though they insist that they do not share that data with their proprietary traders.
As part of its investigation, the SEC also demanded the names of the firms' prime-brokerage clients. So we may soon learn more about whether those sumptuous profits are a result of rare genius - or of an unfair edge.
http://money.cnn.com/magazines/fortune/fortune_archive/2007/03/05/8401273/index.htm?source=yahoo_quoteDas steht in Posting 3559 indirekt drin. Wenn die Cash-Quote der großen Fonds jetzt auf einem der niedrigsten Level seit 1997 steht, kann sie im Jahr 2000 nicht nennenswert niedriger gewesen sein.
Weiterhin interessant ist, dass in USA die Höhe der Lombardkredite (Margin für Aktienkäufe auf Kredit) bereits wieder so hoch ist wie im Frühjahr 2000. D. h. dass weder bei den Fonds, die voll investiert sind, noch bei den Zockern, die Margin-mäßig am Anschlag laborieren, Kohle zum weiteren Hochkaufen der Indizes vorhanden ist.
Ich finde immer wieder lustig, wenn einige Gast-Bullen hier im Thread argumentieren, "die Mehrheit" sei ja noch gar nicht bullisch. Damit meinen sie die "immer noch nicht euphorischen deutschen Kleinanleger". Tatsache aber ist, dass nicht die deutschen Kleinanleger die (Dax-)Kurse machen, sondern die großen Fonds - vor allem die aus USA, die zurzeit bevorzugt in Europa anlegen.
Dieser oft zitierte "Kontraindikator" dafür, dass das Hoch noch nicht erreicht sei, ist daher - im wahrsten Wortsinn - BULL-Shit.
Die 30-jährigen Bonds könnten steigen, weil Bernanke sich bei seinen Reden in der letzten Woche "dovish" gegeben hat. Wenn der Markt Fed-Zinssenkungen erwartet, steilt sich die Zinskurve oft auf. Das hat die fatale Folge, dass Hypothekenkredite, die sich am Zinssatz am "langen Ende" orientieren, NOCH teurer werden. Wer also glaubt, Zinssenkungen der Fed würden den Housing-Markt retten, ist auf dem Holzweg.
Deshalb greift auch das Argument von J. Cramer nicht (oben im Thread). Er erwartet wegen der Housing-Krise mehrere Zinssenkungen, die den Dow um 17 % anheben sollen bis Jahresende. IMHO könnte allenfalls eine Bankenkrise wegen fauler Kredite zu Fed-Zinssenkungen führen (dann wäre der Subprime-Markt schon "aufgegeben"). Die Zinssenkung würde die Indizes zwar beflügeln. Zuvor aber wären sie schon wegen der Bankenkrise um 20 bis 30 % eingebrochen. Der Anstieg erfolgt also von einem deutlich niedrigeren Niveau aus.
Bernanke dürfte, wie Greenspan, auf Kursentwicklungen reagieren, sie aber nicht vorwegnehmen. Solange die Indizes nicht deutlich fallen, heißt das Fed-Programm "Inflationsminderung". Erst NACHDEM die Kurse stark gefallen sind, ist die Fed die "Liquiditätsfeuerwehr". Das ist aber das Notfallprogramm. Und dass nach einem solchen Absturz die jetzigen Höchststände schnell wieder erreicht oder gar überboten werden, wage ich zu bezweifeln.
Heute liegt die Mk vieler Dax Buden jeweils über 50 Milliarden Euro.
Man kann das als normal betrachten oder halt nicht.
Ansichtssache...
sag doch mal, was du meinst, wann es kracht !
das es irgendwann einmal kracht, wissen wir doch alle
aber nur wenn man weiss, wann das ist, ist man gut
wenn man 2 Jahre lang sagt, es wird krachen, so wie Chris Locke von Oyster..
hat man zwangsläufig irgendwann Recht
wenn man nicht weiss, wann
ist das doch wie im Casino auf rot und weiss setzten
solange ich verdoppeln kann , gewinne ich
aber wieviel?
beim 1. mal 100%
beim 1000. mal ,x%
also sich der Bedrohung bewusst sein, ok !
aber immer den Häusermarkt hervorzuzaubern - na ja ich weiss nicht ?
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Angst frisst Gier
Dieser Thread ist, wie ja schon im Eingangsposting steht, ein BÄREN-Thread und soll eine Plattform sein, in der sich Leute austauschen können, die sich für die hier behandelten Themen interessieren - das ist vor allem die vermutete Verschlechterung der wirtschaftlichen Lage in USA. Auch die Diskussion von Gegenthesen ist erwünscht, aber halt auf sachlicher Ebene. Definitiv unerwünscht ist besserwisserisches Dampf-Ablassen ohne Substanz.
Ich hatte schon überlegt, den Thread neu aufzumachen als geschlossene Benutzergruppe. Das ist mir jedoch zu umständlich. Stattdessen hab ich mich nun entschlossen, Leute, die meiner Meinung nach nichts Konstruktives beizutragen haben, auf die Ignore-Liste zu setzen. Ich entspreche damit einem Wunsch, den anderen regelmäßige Poster schon öfter per BM an mich herangetragen haben, und bitte um Euer Verständnis.
Dass Deutschland ein "Sonderfall" ist und in vielerlei Hinsicht anders als der Rest der Welt, musste z. B. Wal-Mart schmerzlich erfahren: Deutschland ist das einzige Land auf der Welt, wo der US-Supermarktriese nach einigen Jahren aufgeben musste, weil zwischen Aldi und Lidl (Geiz ist geil) für ihn nichts zu holen war.
Dennoch könnten wir jetzt noch eine von wem auch immer verursachte Kaufpanik sehen, die den DAX bis (weit?) über 7000 hievt. Wenn das Pulver verschossen ist, dürfte es aber, wie auch der Autor Deines Postings vermutet, scharf nach unten gehen. Timen lässt sich das nur schwer.
Ich möchte noch einmal daran erinnern, dass es in diesem Thread um die Lage bzw. Krise in USA geht. Der Dax ist bei einem Kursrückgang in USA zwar auch betroffen, aber er steht hier nicht im Mittelpunkt.
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"If any man seeks for greatness, let him forget greatness and ask for truth, and he will find both." (Horace Mann)
Grund: Es gibt immer wieder Leute, die hier nur ihr Mütchen kühlen wollen und nichts Substanzielles beizutragen haben. Damit wird dem Thread "der rote Faden" genommen - er wird schlicht unübersichtlich dadurch. Das wäre wohlgemerkt keine "Zensur", sondern halt die Beschränkung auf Leute, die sich ungestört von sachfremden und unproduktiven Seitenhieben dem eigentlichen Thema widmen und sich auf das Wesentliche konzentrieren wollen. Bislang hab ich Störenfriede auf die Ignore-Liste gesetzt (sozusagen: "schwarze Liste"), was dazu führt, dass sie hier nicht mehr posten können. Die geschlossene Benutzergruppe wäre im Gegensatz dazu eine "weiße Liste". Lesen könnte dann ja ohnehin jeder...
(Bin heute vormittag bis 1 Uhr beim Zahnarzt und kann erst danach wieder antworten.)